Curse

skillsbas8 · Mar 21, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I agree with this. Offensive casters do need good energy management, but the problem is energy management for offensive casters almost always works on monks too. Every single guild I fought last night had mo/e's with GoLE and an aegis chain. The warrior part of me thinks it's stupid, because he can't do anything, but the monk part of me hates it too. All I do as a monk is saving spikes, because if you don't spike you might as well /resign against an aegis chain.

So bring enchant removal.
Just because all other e-management sucks is no reason to nerf anything decent.

TLLOTS · Mar 22, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I agree with this. Offensive casters do need good energy management, but the problem is energy management for offensive casters almost always works on monks too. Every single guild I fought last night had mo/e's with GoLE and an aegis chain. The warrior part of me thinks it's stupid, because he can't do anything, but the monk part of me hates it too. All I do as a monk is saving spikes, because if you don't spike you might as well /resign against an aegis chain.

Just out of curiousity, if Aegis were nerfed so that it's no longer the 'I win' button against pressure that it is now, do you think Glyph of Lesser Energy would be anywhere near as big a problem as it is now? I ask mainly because while I think Glyph of Lesser Energy probably is overpowered, I like some of the diversity it has brought to builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Ele attunements don't even do that, because once an Ele's energy pool is down, if you don't have an emanagement elite, well your pool is down even with an attunement there.

Just going off topic for a moment, but that's just one of many problems I have with attunements. I've really grown to hate them the more I play an Elementalist because they're just always in my bar and yet it doesn't feel like a strong skill, it feels like a forced weakness which I either take and deal with, or I suck more.

I really wish that (after Elementalist spell costs get fixed) attunements were made something closer to what an IAS is for Warriors, in that it would provide a short duration in which you are able to ramp up your spellcasting abilities. Make it cost 5 energy, with a very low recharge and a low duration and make it cause exhuastion. Give me a skill like that (exactly how it'd work I'm not sure), and I'd be in love with the Elementalist all over again.

Riotgear · Mar 22, 2007, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

You know, I'm not convinced that's a solution. Because there's also a balancing part to spell cost that's important if you don't want to raise the recharge.

If a class needs energy management to cast its own spells, another class doesn't, and both have access to those energy management abilities, then one of the two needs their spell costs adjusted. The only other real solution is to add things like Glowing Gaze, which are completely impractical to run without other supporting abilities.

Quote:

Spell cost prevents from using all your big spells back to back without a problem.

Are you taking energy management just so you can do that anyway though?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLLOTS

I've really grown to hate them the more I play an Elementalist because they're just always in my bar and yet it doesn't feel like a strong skill, it feels like a forced weakness which I either take and deal with, or I suck more.

Agreed, they serve little purpose but to waste a skill slot.

Quote:

Give me a skill like that (exactly how it'd work I'm not sure), and I'd be in love with the Elementalist all over again.

That's sort of what glyphs were intended for.

Lord Natural · Mar 22, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Oh man. Don't give Izzy any ideas. It's the only practical e-management skill left in the game. There should be a gentlemen's agreement never to talk about this skill.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 22, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLLOTS

Just out of curiousity, if Aegis were nerfed so that it's no longer the 'I win' button against pressure that it is now, do you think Glyph of Lesser Energy would be anywhere near as big a problem as it is now? I ask mainly because while I think Glyph of Lesser Energy probably is overpowered, I like some of the diversity it has brought to builds.

I think if GoLE was not usable by monks at all, it would not be a problem.

lordelg · Mar 22, 2007, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Mirror of dissenchant > Aegi chains... GoLE on a mes or ele works wonders. Ruins Bonders in HA too.

yesitsrob · Mar 22, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

As far as I'm conerned if you're running mirror to combat aegis when a 3 energy distracting shot does the same and is significantly more versatile and has a better effect well.. your choice. I suppose mirror has some advantages but not that many imo.

My problem with GoLE - is the whole fact that it waits for the skill to resolve before considering it a use of the glyph, that way you can fake cast a shit load to have a better chance against interruption. Sure, a monk under pressure won't be stopping to fake cast aegis too much, but gah. it's annoying. Aegis is already annoying enough.

I'd be fine with a nerf to it if they made the inspiration line which they completely murdered more viable

elektra_lucia · Mar 22, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Energy Drain drains the targets energy as well, plus you can use that energy for anything. Using gole on a five energy spell doesn't save you much energy, and sometimes you'll find you'll be forced to use a five energy spell.

OoB is unconditional in the sense you can use the energy for anything.

GoLE you're pretty much forced to use it on 10+ energy spells or why bother?

GoLE is on Ele, where there isn't many OTHER e-management skills. The point being - with something like e-drain, you can run channeling too, or drain enchant. Mesmer has lots of other e-management skills and you can put a couple on your bar and get well over the benefit that GoLE offers you.

Mantra of recall you can cop it and or use 40/40 weapons (this goes to all mesmer energy management skills).

You can't use 40/40 weapons with GoLE.

For a healer monk you can run like, channeling and drain enchant or p-drain :]. I really like p-drain and channeling on an infuser. In no way does ele skills with GoLE give me that energy management.

I do think that Ele not offering many other e-management skills is an important issue to look at because as I said, if you run GoLE, you can't have another e-management thing on your bar. Unless of course you're an ele with mesmer skills; however, when people want GoLE nerfed, they're thinking more along the lines of nerfing it because of aegis (I presume).

Quote:

explain how losing all of you energy doesnt bother a monk?

Not trying to defend the point as such (just an idea) -

Switch to -5, -5 weapons, purge - switch weapons - use an e-management skill?

yesitsrob · Mar 22, 2007, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

if you run GoLE, you can't have another e-management thing on your bar

For ele... Attunements, EProd, EPrism, GoE... all of which are pretty solid choices on primary. ON secondary you don't need any other emanagement really. and i'd rather take one awesome glyph over 2 rather weak inspiration which a) don't net much more than if anymore than the 1 skill and b) require a decent investment. With channeling I personally don't feel comfortable channel-tanking in GVG >_>

With glyph, correct.. you can't use it efficiently on 5 energy skills... so on that note, don't. On a monk you'll have the likes of Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, Aegis, Heal Other, Divert Hexes to name a few to use it on anyway.

GoLE is pretty stupid on mesmer bars too, (mesmers, who can use their inspiration for e management but choose not to because it's quite frankly outclassed)

elektra_lucia · Mar 22, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

For ele, there is - but ele's use extremely high energy spells anyways, so I wouldn't say it's imbalanced for them; therefore, no need to change anything there.

For a monk there's some high energy spells, sure - but you won't be running prot spirit, spirit bond, aegis, heal other, divert hex's on the same person surely?

How is GoLE stupid on mesmers?

---

For GVG, yeah I wouldn't feel comftable using channeling all the time; however, just because GoLE is quite good for this, does it mean it's over powered? I disagree.

HA, RA, TA, Alliance battles and other PVP areas I'm happy with p-drain and channeling. Or mantra of -Whatever, sometimes works very nice.

Quote:

(mesmers, who can use their inspiration for e management but choose not to because it's quite frankly outclassed)

Hmm, I'm not experienced with mesmers for GVG; however, for other PVP areas - the interupts with energy can be very nice.

I look at it like this. Supposing you have a graph, -10 to +10. 0 Being the middle.

The energy managements from other classes are -10, and Glyph of Lesser is +1. Sure it may be a bit over powered (to be honest, I don't even see it as over powered at all, but I'll say it is for the sake of argument). Do you A) Nerf GoLE, or B) Concentrate more on the skills which are -10 and extremely imbalanced; therefore, buff them? The easiest answer is to nerf GoLE; however, from my experience - that's never been the correct answer.

Quote:

With channeling I personally don't feel comfortable channel-tanking in GVG

With GVG you have the luxury of being able to fall back though :].

Lord Natural · Mar 22, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Hmm, I'm not experienced with mesmers for GVG; however, for other PVP areas - the interupts with energy can be very nice.

I believe the point was GoLE will yield similar returns to the best inspiration skills while costing no attributes. Inspiration is so terrible right now that the attributes required just to make it comparable to GoLE would negatively impact the build.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 23, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Copy+Pasting my post from Team-iQ because I'm lazy...

All I'll add to this discussion is a note that skills should not be balanced against their shitty counterparts. Energy Drain and Drain Enchantment are crap now, and they wouldn't see play even if GoLE was removed from the game tomorrow. Skills need to be balanced for the current play environment, not against terrible skills that try and fail to do the same thing.

Is GoLE overpowered in the current environment? Probably. However, that doesn't mean nerfing it for everything but ele primaries is the right approach. All casters in this game need energy management, and with the Inspiration nerfs, GoLE is pretty much the only way to get it.

Ideally, you wouldn't have to go /Me or /E for energy because every caster class would have decent energy management options available.

Remember, every slot you have to use on pure energy management makes your character less diverse and more gimmicky. The more your skills cost and the less powerful e-management is, the more slots you have to spend on energy trying to make your one or two tricks actually viable. Look at the Searing Flames ele - it's basically an entire bar full of energy management to spam Searing Flames, with incidental spells like Aegis thrown in.

Indeed, one of the nice things about GoLE is the way its given Dom mesmers more skillslots to play around with. They can get all the energy they need with a single skill, which gives them 6-7 other slots so they can handle a wide variety of situations and tactics. I'm not sure it's better than the e-management + effect approach of the original inspiration line, but that kind of skillslot compression certainly makes characters more interesting. As a general rule, versatile characters that spend their skillslots on opening up new tactics are good for the game.

While I could certainly support a hit to GoLE (knocking it down to 10 e per cast is my vote), I would rather Aegis was nerfed into the ground. A fairly powerful GoLE allows interesting characters and caster builds, while a fairly powerful passive defense allows long boring slugfests against shitty teams.

thelord23 · Mar 23, 2007, 11:43 AM // 11:43

if you take out GoLE from a monk what do you leave him with?balthazar sprit (jk)

a monk need to heal his entire party not just 1 single character he needs to protect from spikes and he needs to protect from melee and he need to protect with pressure and he need to protect himself protect from hexes and conditions.. all those stuff cost tons of energy.. in gvg mostly 2 monks need to counter what 5 other characters are doing...

monk with no energy = party memebrs getting killed in no time..

so if 1 ele is waiting a bit to restore his energy a monk cant do that because the warrior in the ele's team keeps attacking which prevents him from gaining his energy again..

besides that ele can use GoLE nobody told him not 2 use it.

suiraCLAW · Mar 23, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58

If GoLE really needs to be fixed double aftercast or double cast time would, IMHO, be the best fix.

Both fixes would keep it usefull for mesmers, elementalist and necromancers (3 secs for max 25 net energy every 30 seconds isn't that bad), but would punish using GoLE + Aegis/HP , while keeping GoLE + SoR rather usefull.

Shane Postus · Mar 25, 2007, 06:10 AM // 06:10

aegis chains existed before gole... albeit more demanding on the monks but still the only real viable counter to melee trains.

Now wait a second. dervishes do massive dmg, thumpers KD me so i cant stand up to heal, warriors have a vast assortment of little tricks, sins spike so fast its hard to get heal in and the monk bar hasn't greatly improved to deal with these new threats. Only 2 real skills help me out now... ZB and GoH. Straight heals in the prot line (GoH is basically prot...). WOW! While melee has been getting buffed upon their already massive dps and high spike potential, monks have been getting very little to directly counter melee. Tough for you grenths and RaO's that want to be able to steamroll any monk 100% of the time because they cant possibly keep up w/ your dmg output. If you want to kill a healer character you have to do more than outdmg them. Try interupting their 2 second aegis? perhaps you remove an enchant for a change!

what a bizarre idea bringing enchant removal! But wait, why should i waste a skill to counter only aegis? Answer: Enchant removals are ALWAYS going to be used EVERY match regardless of aegis chain or not. remember that ele attunement? GONE! Prot spirit sucks doesnt it? POOF! Sure wish he wasnt an echo mending warrior with healing breeze and meteor shower... well so do i i guess...

Point is: Aegis isnt overpowered. its the same as it always was and it is now more accessible to help out monks vs the improved melee chars. Its still interuptable, still removable, still a 30 second recharge w/ only 13 seconds of effectivness. Aegis chains suck and all but if you cant interupt 1 aegis every 30 seconds your build fails. And you prob need some offencive casters to help

On Topic: GoLE is the only viable e-management left. non-elite that is, though better than some elites. the only time GoLE is imba is with ZB, where a monk not only gets the heals for free, if the target is below 50% he gains 20 energy too. but other than that it gives you 2 free spells... after that you got 30 seconds before he uses it again. Make that 30 seconds count. BTW, if all e-management is taken from monks then it'll be a slaughterhouse. Monks cant keep up with all of the offencive advances. a single derv or sin can kill a monk... grenths and boas are just so powrful. We need to keep something that gives us at least a 50% chance of survivin the encounter. Energy could help...

Bankai · Mar 25, 2007, 07:42 AM // 07:42

GoLE+Aegis+ZB is freaking imba. Not just GoLE+ZB.

Keep the Aegis discussions in the Aegis thread.